Josh
Well, Let's jump into Iron Man 3?
Jeff
Sure. You didn't like it, because you're a crazy person
who hates smart action, character development, justified violence, and
innovation. Did I sum that up right?
Josh
I think you missed the point. I don't like one thing, one
giant thing about the film that spoils the rest for me. I think the first hour
and half is great.
Also, innovation? Where? There are some wonderful ideas
and concepts in this film but what groundbreaking?
Jeff
Innovation might be the wrong word, but I feel this movie
certainly broke new ground for Marvel Phase 2, and absolutely pushed the
boundaries for this particular franchise. The scope of this movie was much
larger than any of the others, arguably greater than The Avengers. And, while
still a comic book movie, it heightened the reality of the world. Instead of
goofy, faceless drones. Tony Stark faced off with a world with real stakes and
real violence that had something to say about our political climate, though it
was a satirical thrill ride.
Josh
Agreed. I like the way they took the character. Actually
exploring the bad side of being Iron Man.
I disagree about the scope. It was just what it needed to be, it's a very small personal story at heart. It's about Stark and his struggle with being Iron Man. How the events of The Avengers have affected him (I love that they address that in the film), how Iron Man affects his personal and professional life, and gives the character a ton of room to keep growing but also completes his journey of self discovery. In the scheme of things, this is a very intimate film about Stark and Pepper.
I disagree about the scope. It was just what it needed to be, it's a very small personal story at heart. It's about Stark and his struggle with being Iron Man. How the events of The Avengers have affected him (I love that they address that in the film), how Iron Man affects his personal and professional life, and gives the character a ton of room to keep growing but also completes his journey of self discovery. In the scheme of things, this is a very intimate film about Stark and Pepper.
Jeff
I agree that this movie did have a great personal
journey. I also feel that this was possible because the fabric of the backdrop
was much richer. They finally had a villain! We both agree that that is a first
for this series.
Josh
Yes… BUT THEN THEY TOOK THAT VILLAIN FROM ME!
Screw it. Spoilers from this point on.
SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!!
Go away if you haven’t watched Iron Man 3!
…
Still there? Ok.
We obviously disagreed about on major moment in Iron Man
3, so we’ll present our arguments separately, then discuss. Josh won the coin
toss, so he’ll go first.
The Great Debate
Josh
This film built up an awesome villain who had a a
cause, and set up a show down between Stark and The Mandarin.
Then instead of following through on that villain they go with a bull-crap
villain who is all about money and power and owning both sides of the economy.
What is Guy Pearce(Aldrich Killian-for the sake of speed we often just refer to
the actor name in this conversation)’s reason for doing what he is doing?
POLITICS! That's it, he wants to play the game and get money. BORING AS CRAP. He's
the same stupid villain as Sam Rockwell in Iron Man 2 (just smarter)
In terms of the development of the film, I would have loved to see someone who is challenging our way of life of America have to face-off with the man who is the face of America. That's a far more compelling story.
I personally feel like the story that we were led to believe they were setting up was far more interesting than what they ended up delivering. I don't care about the Vice-President being in the back pocket of Pearce. I don't care about... I just never cared about Pearce's character, he was manipulative and predicable. Also his female not-evil/evil/not-evil assistant made me grind my teeth, there was no reason for her to turn back and try to save Tony, she had just betrayed him and Pepper, so why does she try to save Tony? Why? I have no clue... He's pretty? His goatee? Those are the only reasons I have for that.
I'm not opposed to The Mandarin being a front (I don't like it because it's equivalent of taking the Joker and making him a dumb phoney, the comic book Mandarin is to Iron Man what Joker is Batman, but this production didn’t care) but I am opposed to the “Trevor” reveal. Why? Why take a major plot point and play it as a joke. That was awful. I hated everything about that scene and the scene with War Machine later. They took someone who was given so much clout and then just pissed on it. Everything that we were told before that point was made a joke. It was like they were laughing at the audience for buying that this guy could possibly do harm to anyone. Laughing at contemporary terrorism, saying that it's all a fake and controlled by someone you aren’t even aware of. I hate what it said about the current state of the "war of terror." They had a real, grounded villain that was shaping up to be on the level of The Joker in this film and they just gave the audience the finger and went right back to familiar ground with a familiar BS reason as why Pearce is the real villain.
Director Shane Black had a chance to make a statement about modern society within his comic book film and shied away from it in favor of a stupid twist to try to shock the audience. It was from that twist on that I stopped caring about the film
In terms of the development of the film, I would have loved to see someone who is challenging our way of life of America have to face-off with the man who is the face of America. That's a far more compelling story.
I personally feel like the story that we were led to believe they were setting up was far more interesting than what they ended up delivering. I don't care about the Vice-President being in the back pocket of Pearce. I don't care about... I just never cared about Pearce's character, he was manipulative and predicable. Also his female not-evil/evil/not-evil assistant made me grind my teeth, there was no reason for her to turn back and try to save Tony, she had just betrayed him and Pepper, so why does she try to save Tony? Why? I have no clue... He's pretty? His goatee? Those are the only reasons I have for that.
I'm not opposed to The Mandarin being a front (I don't like it because it's equivalent of taking the Joker and making him a dumb phoney, the comic book Mandarin is to Iron Man what Joker is Batman, but this production didn’t care) but I am opposed to the “Trevor” reveal. Why? Why take a major plot point and play it as a joke. That was awful. I hated everything about that scene and the scene with War Machine later. They took someone who was given so much clout and then just pissed on it. Everything that we were told before that point was made a joke. It was like they were laughing at the audience for buying that this guy could possibly do harm to anyone. Laughing at contemporary terrorism, saying that it's all a fake and controlled by someone you aren’t even aware of. I hate what it said about the current state of the "war of terror." They had a real, grounded villain that was shaping up to be on the level of The Joker in this film and they just gave the audience the finger and went right back to familiar ground with a familiar BS reason as why Pearce is the real villain.
Director Shane Black had a chance to make a statement about modern society within his comic book film and shied away from it in favor of a stupid twist to try to shock the audience. It was from that twist on that I stopped caring about the film
Jeff
I love you, Josh, but I really disagree with everything
you just said.
I was okay with the Red Herring of The Mandarin for a lot
of reasons. Let's start on the surface: The Mandarin is a really hard character
to pull off on film today. At best, he's vaguely racist, at worst, he's really
racist.
The first Iron Man deals with the more
"realistic" contemporary Middle Eastern terrorist, so I don't mind and
in fact appreciate Black turning that on its head in this movie. I'm personally
tired of seeing that kind of terrorist on film. The real threat in our world
isn't the man on the camera making threats, it's the man you never see, it's
the cold, quiet corporate power that rules your life in ways that you don't
know or understand. This movie chose to play on that fear.
Black baldly stated that they designed the Mandarin
around the symbols of terrorist we know, Saddam’s beard, etc. He used the
symbols that we’re used to vilifying to show just how shallow that mindset is.
The American people (in real life!) were terrified into a war that STILL
HAPPENING through a campaign of media hype and the use of cultural cliches I
personally was relieved to see a more sophisticated villain that used the
public puppet show to their advantage. And more power to Black for satirizing
that small-minded fear in his awesome super-hero action/comedy flick.
I think that's why the twist didn't bother me, and in fact
was a nice moment.
Every time I saw The Mandarin in character posturing for
the camera, I saw no real power. He was a buffoon, and could offer nothing but
the same old grunge-match over vague, anarchist ideals that we’ve seen over and
over again.
I love Guy Pearce. I love his transformation in this film
and his “Great and Powerful Oz” quest for anonymity. Sam Rockwell played an idiot
who couldn't match stark, a comic scoundrel. Pearce had the cold confidence of
a man who could hurt people, kill people, do terrible things to Pepper, and
terrorize the American people, all while jerking the chain of Iron Man without
breaking a sweat.
I don't want another, "There's the bad guy! Let's
hit him really hard!" movie, this pushed a little (not that far, but a
little) beyond that.
I'm not afraid of the boogie man, I'm afraid of the man
that's behind the camera, funding him and making me afraid of him - actually
making me PAY to be afraid. Because that’s the world we live in. I don’t think
it trivialized our war on terror, I think it had a lot to say about the fact
that that it's a charade led by corporate interest, not an actual idealistic
struggle.
Tony Stark had to face an evil version of himself, a man
like he was at the beginning of the original Iron Man, but with super powers
and no conscience. Hence, bringing him full circle to the emotional finish.
Josh - Rebuttal
My basic problem with the red herring is that I think the first story that was being set up was far more interesting then what they finally delivered, and the film went from unpredictable to highly predictable. I also personally think that casting Ben Kingsley avoids all racist notions considering he's that he’s playing a British guy.
I agree that Ben Kinglsey's Mandarin having a high-powered American backer is not a poor idea and probably is a better representation of modern terrorism. It's the execution I take issue with. Again, I go back to the fact that all the character's power was thrown out the window, and that was a pain for me to grasp. I've even thought during the film, if I known that The Mandarin was working with/for someone the entire time I might have been more into the reveal. I just hated the way it was put together.
On the Guy Pearce angle, there was nothing interesting about the character. From moment one when Tony blows him off, you know that he will mold himself into someone new and pretty and with power and money. That is a given fact (like how the "unattractive" high school girl will take off her glasses and pull down her hair and be the prettiest girl in school in all teen films) He does become an evil version of Tony Stark, I like this analogy and it works. Hell, I'd even be willing to accept that Pearce is the guy behind The Mandarin the entire time, but what I can't accept is that Kingsley character is just a complete moron who didn't even know what going on? He thought it was all an act? Really? Tough pill to swallow.
Setting aside the point of whether it was good twist or not, how can you justify the overtly comedic reveal? What is redeeming about that awful scene? It’s one of the worst things in the whole Marvel Universe. The comedy is not subtle, why in the world would Stark take time to quip with this man when the woman he loves is dying or dead? Why would you leave your "puppet" so uniformed that he would just spill his guts to the first man that breaks in? Why, if you are so in control of the situation, would you ever pick Trevor? Pearce's character is clearly picking people all the time to be part of his team, and he settles for this guy? It's this one scene that is crux of the film and it's the one scene where it fall apart.
My basic problem with the red herring is that I think the first story that was being set up was far more interesting then what they finally delivered, and the film went from unpredictable to highly predictable. I also personally think that casting Ben Kingsley avoids all racist notions considering he's that he’s playing a British guy.
I agree that Ben Kinglsey's Mandarin having a high-powered American backer is not a poor idea and probably is a better representation of modern terrorism. It's the execution I take issue with. Again, I go back to the fact that all the character's power was thrown out the window, and that was a pain for me to grasp. I've even thought during the film, if I known that The Mandarin was working with/for someone the entire time I might have been more into the reveal. I just hated the way it was put together.
On the Guy Pearce angle, there was nothing interesting about the character. From moment one when Tony blows him off, you know that he will mold himself into someone new and pretty and with power and money. That is a given fact (like how the "unattractive" high school girl will take off her glasses and pull down her hair and be the prettiest girl in school in all teen films) He does become an evil version of Tony Stark, I like this analogy and it works. Hell, I'd even be willing to accept that Pearce is the guy behind The Mandarin the entire time, but what I can't accept is that Kingsley character is just a complete moron who didn't even know what going on? He thought it was all an act? Really? Tough pill to swallow.
Setting aside the point of whether it was good twist or not, how can you justify the overtly comedic reveal? What is redeeming about that awful scene? It’s one of the worst things in the whole Marvel Universe. The comedy is not subtle, why in the world would Stark take time to quip with this man when the woman he loves is dying or dead? Why would you leave your "puppet" so uniformed that he would just spill his guts to the first man that breaks in? Why, if you are so in control of the situation, would you ever pick Trevor? Pearce's character is clearly picking people all the time to be part of his team, and he settles for this guy? It's this one scene that is crux of the film and it's the one scene where it fall apart.
Jeff - Rebuttal
I don't think Trevor is unaware, I think he just doesn't care. He's too far gone to be anything but a performing monkey. I think the scene works on the level that Iron Man and the other super-heroes have such god-like power that their villains always seem a bit ridiculous. How can you compete with an Avenger? Why would you try? Why do those community-college-drop-out thugs always seem to think they can beat Batman? In that way, it was nice to see a character who copped to it. I can see how that would be emotionally dissatisfying, but for me it was funny and refreshing.
Anyone who is setting themselves up as "The Mandarin: sworn enemy of EVERYBODY" is obviously never going to survive, even with super powers, which this guy doesn't have. It's a win-win for Pearce, if Trevor dies, great, if not, Pearce will kill him anyway. For that kind of job you get a man like Trevor, one who doesn't care about anything, including himself, and make him comfortable.
I don't think Trevor is unaware, I think he just doesn't care. He's too far gone to be anything but a performing monkey. I think the scene works on the level that Iron Man and the other super-heroes have such god-like power that their villains always seem a bit ridiculous. How can you compete with an Avenger? Why would you try? Why do those community-college-drop-out thugs always seem to think they can beat Batman? In that way, it was nice to see a character who copped to it. I can see how that would be emotionally dissatisfying, but for me it was funny and refreshing.
Anyone who is setting themselves up as "The Mandarin: sworn enemy of EVERYBODY" is obviously never going to survive, even with super powers, which this guy doesn't have. It's a win-win for Pearce, if Trevor dies, great, if not, Pearce will kill him anyway. For that kind of job you get a man like Trevor, one who doesn't care about anything, including himself, and make him comfortable.
Josh – Cooling Down
That's Fair. (Trevor is a Dum-Dum, he fully cops to that in the film and no one ever says
any different, I just have to point that out)
Jeff – Also Cooling Down
It's obvious that whether this twist works isn't a right
or wrong answer, but a matter of individual perspective. We have really similar
views, but this managed to hit us two very different ways, and I think both of
us have stated good reasons for that.
Debate Over – Winner? You Decide.
Now, continuing…
Josh
I want to remind that everyone that in an earlier “what we learned this week at the movies” article I did have a rather long list of things I liked about the film. Here they are as a refresher.
Pros:
Robert Downey Jr. is awesome as always as Tony Stark.
Great fight sequences that you can follow and understand at all times.
Iron Man gets his Short Round!
Fantastic, but not distracting, special effects.
A good balance between comedy and action (except for one glaring moment).
Good use of back story and sets up the next chapter in the film.
Great tie-in with the Marvel universe.
The final credits cut scene worth sticking around for.
Compelling characters
Director Shane Black does a very good job of making the film his own, while still being faithful to the Iron Man/Marvel Universe
Moves at a great pace, never boring
I want to remind that everyone that in an earlier “what we learned this week at the movies” article I did have a rather long list of things I liked about the film. Here they are as a refresher.
Pros:
Robert Downey Jr. is awesome as always as Tony Stark.
Great fight sequences that you can follow and understand at all times.
Iron Man gets his Short Round!
Fantastic, but not distracting, special effects.
A good balance between comedy and action (except for one glaring moment).
Good use of back story and sets up the next chapter in the film.
Great tie-in with the Marvel universe.
The final credits cut scene worth sticking around for.
Compelling characters
Director Shane Black does a very good job of making the film his own, while still being faithful to the Iron Man/Marvel Universe
Moves at a great pace, never boring
Jeff
Well said! I'd add that I love how this movie managed to
genre-hop around all the things that Shane Black is great at: It was
alternately a comedy, thriller, buddy movie, and detective story, all while
telling a cohesive story and furthering every major character. Because of this
it felt different than any of the other marvel films. Somehow more complete.
It reminded me of an older generation of action movie, Shane
Black's generation, which had a bit more going on story-wise than we have to
suffer through in a lot of contemporary action movies.
In short, it was more Die Hard than A Good Day to Die
Hard.
And I LOVE that it opened with "I'm Blue" by
Eiffel 65 over the Paramount logo, and I adored all the 80's and 70's
references. He made a West World joke! I think I was the only one in the
theater who laughed!
Josh
There is a good story in this film and all of our
characters do end up in a nice place. I give it an A for effort in that
department. Not to go all college snob on people but if we look at Aristotle's
6 elements of drama, they still hold true: 1. Plot 2. Theme 3. Character 4.
Dialogue 5. Music/Rhythm 6. Spectacle. I feel like what Black does right is he
understand these elements and makes the important things the focus and the less
important things... well less important. That is why this film succeeds at all.
Jeff
What'd you think of Pepper and Rhodey's development?
Josh
Liked Rhodey's a lot. We finally get to see a little
deeper into his character, and I could actually see a spin off working based on
what they did with him.
I've long stopped caring about Paltrow as Pepper. So when she finally gets some focus in this film I can't stop seeing the helpless, whiny bimbo from the first films. Not going to lie, the theater I was in cheered when she "died" (and I was one of them) and booed when she returned. I think Pepper has been waste and continues to be so. She serves no purpose other than Tony's love interest and ground in reality.
I liked Happy a lot in this film! Great use of that character.
I've long stopped caring about Paltrow as Pepper. So when she finally gets some focus in this film I can't stop seeing the helpless, whiny bimbo from the first films. Not going to lie, the theater I was in cheered when she "died" (and I was one of them) and booed when she returned. I think Pepper has been waste and continues to be so. She serves no purpose other than Tony's love interest and ground in reality.
I liked Happy a lot in this film! Great use of that character.
Jeff
And great of Jon Favreau to come back as an actor even
though he wasn't directing.
I agree that they haven't given Pepper anything to work
with until now. The Avengers was her first real step forward. I can’t blame
Paltrow for a lack of character development in the first two films, she did the
best she could with what she was given. This movie gave her more, so we got
more. In this film, they made her CEO, they allowed her independence, they put
her in the suit, and then finally give her the power to act against a threat.
Josh
She got a lot of ground to cover, this was a good step in
the right direction. But I think it's too little too late for the film version
of the character, though she did serve a great purpose in this film and this
was easily the best version of the character. This was the best Paltrow as
Pepper that we've seen.
Jeff
So many great moments in this film! Saving the people,
then being hit by the semi, then revealing it was remote control the whole time?
Ah! Great surprise.
Josh
I did like that, it was an awesome call-back and great
sequence.
Jeff
And Jarvis was developed too, remember how I told you in
2011 that I wanted to look at Jarvis and his abilities as the real Iron Man? I
even wrote that comic last year? This movie did that!!!! The crowd of Iron Men
was explained by Stark being unable to sleep or calm down after NYC?! Great
move, and a great excuse for a fantastic sequence.
And the Iron Man suit responding to Stark's nightmares by
attacking Pepper was terrifying and a great surprise as well as a great
character moment for all three (I include the suit).
Josh
I was kinda sad that the end battle scene was in the
trailer, it would have been a sweet surprise.
I really also enjoyed the entire segment in Tennessee, the “Short Round” kid was adorable, smart, and not annoying. I really liked what it did for Tony. The Bar and Street fight sequence might have been my favorite of the film, a very personal sequence with high stakes. I'll watch that over and over again.
I really also enjoyed the entire segment in Tennessee, the “Short Round” kid was adorable, smart, and not annoying. I really liked what it did for Tony. The Bar and Street fight sequence might have been my favorite of the film, a very personal sequence with high stakes. I'll watch that over and over again.
Jeff
YES! And they made fun of the typical sappy kid
connection!
Josh
Everything the kid did worked. He was a perfect use of a
kid to show what our hero needs. That section was the best part of the film for
me.
Jeff
STORYTELLING!!!!!!! Success.
Josh
I'm not sure either of us convinced the other is right or
wrong, but that's not the point. I think we both see the others side, which is
great. I feel that this is the start of a long conversation.
Jeff
I agree. I'm glad we both feel passionately. I'm also
glad that this film was SOOO FREAKING AWESOME!
Josh
I won't go there... On the whole I think the film is
better than average, and better than Iron Man 2, but is NOWHERE NEAR Iron Man 1
or The Avengers. The Mandarin issue is too glaring for me, and therefore cannot
be anything then an middle of the road, but fun, film.
I'd give it 3.5 out of 5 stars
Jeff
I understand why you take issue with this film, I really
do, I just don't agree with you on this one. What you see as a weakness I
actually see as strength and a well-told story. Weird, huh?
I say, better than Iron Man 1 for me, 4.5 stars.
Josh
You’re crazy.
Jeff
You are!
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